fashion 2017

good evening everybody. can you hear me? okay, great! welcome. my name is chiyo ishikawa i'm the susan brotman deputy director for art and curator of european painting here at the seattle art museum and i'm really thrilled to welcome you to this evening's program featuring a conversation with bethann hardison which

ties into our new exhibition yves saint laurent: the perfection of style. i'll introduce bethann in a moment. i have just a few remarks first. this exhibition is organized by the seattle art museum in partnership with the fondation pierre berge yves saint laurent in paris and we are delighted that we were able to garner such support for the exhibition

here in seattle. this show is made possible by the sam fund for special exhibitions. our presenting sponsors are microsoft, nordstrom, and the seattle art museum supporters. our major sponsors are barbie and delta. thank you to all of our supporters. [laughter] join me. [applause] and a special thanks to those of you who are members of the seattle art museum. your ongoing support

makes programs like this possible and we couldn't do anything that we do without your support, so thank you. if you are interested in becoming a member of sam, there are brochures that you can take on the way out. and now i want to introduce bethann hardison. bethann is the founder of the modeling and management agency that bears her name

and she has long been a groundbreaker in the world of fashion, first as a model more recently as a businessperson and advocate. she's helped guide the careers of some of the most prominent models of color in recent times and she's the founder of a watchdog charity and networking group of models called the black girls coalition. in 2013,

bethann founded the diversity coalition, which calls for awareness and action toward the effort of creating a more inclusive fashion industry for people of color. she's won many awards including the frederick douglass award in 2013 for her work in promoting diversity in fashion and the 2014 council

of fashion designers of america founders award. tonight we're going to be discussing bethann's career: the progress and challenges that she's experienced working in the fashion industry as a model, manager, and advocate. so please join me in welcoming bethann hardison. [applause] thank you. so let's start by, we're going to start

by kind of going back through your career and then coming up to the present and, um, because i think all aspects of your life in fashion have been really interesting and have brought you into contact with so many interesting people and issues. so i think we can just start by asking how you got started in modeling. what was your background? was

fashion part of your upbringing? and when did you get into it? okay - quick question, quick answer. well i didn't grow up in the fashion business, even though it's now called the fashion business, i grew up in the garment district. that's really important and i am one of these people who like to keep it clear because fashion has gotten to be so

glamorous and everyone thinks you're in fashion now. if they sew a button on a shirt, they're in fashion. [laughter] that is not true. [sigh] so i grew up in a world where you really learned a lot about business and everything that goes with it. i started in a button factory, a custom button factory, and then i went on to a junior dress company, then i went into, uh,

[stammers] um, i think it was low-end dresses. i really went the gamut of the garment district and you learn a lot of things. i got discovered by willi smith. he had just gotten the design position at digits. he was every bit of 19 or 20 years old and he was the first person, as a designer, that asked me to work with them. prior to that, it was bernie ozer who worked at

the federated store that, uh, federated stores that actually take care of all the stores and his office asked me to be in a fashion show. that was my first runway show. and i had a full-time job the whole time i worked as a model. so my modeling was really the exercise of performing while i kept on doing other things. so you

haven't seen the slides that i picked before, but here we see you performing- oh this is interesting. i have to say something. is it up there? okay, i don't want to look back, you know. [laughter] that picture on the left, this is what i love about the internet. don't you love the internet? i hate the internet. [laughter] that picture on that left is not me. that's toukie smith - oh my gosh - but, but this

is not your fault. this, thank you, thank you. this is on, and there's another photograph of billie blair that says i did the bill black. and you can't get it off. that's what i hate the internet. because once something is on, you can't go and like 'oh take that off' and so some godly internet person says 'okay, let me erase that.' it's

permanently on. so, that has nothing to do with anything other than the truth, but that is, that is me on the right. you know, that was one of my, whaddaya call it, my first test shots. and i wasn't a print girl, i was a runway model. i, uh, the runway wor- the runway world and the print world were two different, i guess 'divisions' we would call it, because the runway models

actually service the design world, and the print girls actually worked in the magazines, catalog, and advertising. well, and even though this is toukie smith- willi smith's sister i think, right? yeah. there is something about the runway models of that period that is quite different from the very stoic, straight- ahead,

no eye contact with the audience. and look how much she's enjoying herself and how the audience is enjoying, and it's almost like kind of dancing, and so the runway models were performing a real, well, they were activating the clothes in a way that showed the possibilities of the garments. yeah. and that must have helped the designers and, and kind of foster a

close relationship with the designers. good point. and, and that's very true. we were allowed to bring our personalities to the collections, and that also allowed us as also to be inspirational to the designer which made us muses. mhm. well, and here are some of the models who you know came to prominence during that time and there you, uh i think, right? that is me. [laughter]

no disclaimer here. i don't trust anything anymore, but that looks like you. that is me. on the cover of essence and these are some of the, kind of, groundbreaking models: pat cleveland on the upper right and mounia on the left. those of you, and this is just an aside for people in seattle, those of you who saw the wonderful exhibition at the bellevue

arts museum about the ebony fashion fair will recognize this outfit by yves saint laurent. we have another version of it upstairs in the galleries, but that was you know, another way of kind of fostering the spread of fashion in the united states. putting these covers together of american and european publications makes me want to ask you,

since you had experience both in europe and in the united states, was there a difference in the way models of color were accepted, used, treated by those two capitals? i think once, i think actually, you know, i, sometimes i wonder, i know that, like, someone like dorothea towles who's gone now, she's no longer on this physical

earth, but you know she went to. like, i think she worked at balenciaga or dior. and she was one of the few models of color that went, maybe in the '50s or so. another well-known model was one of my favorites actually, who also went to paris back in those days, but i think really the truth of when we really crossed over well was when we went to

versailles and i think that changed everything for the, for the, um, the french designers because that's when they recognized us being on stage with the whites as well as with the dancers. that 'battle of versailles' change everything for everyone and seeing us walk and sashay or move to the music. designers in paris had never even seen a show of models

with music, they'd never even witnessed anything that way. so, to see these girls that came down and then i was the first one when the programs went on the air. when i came down the runway- so it wasn't a runway actually. it was actually a theater in versailles that was a marie antoinette theater so it was more an embankment. and this, oh there it is. well, see. and so in, and in

this particular case it really was something that really was very valuable and i think that's when mr. saint laurent and givenchy embraced the girls of color, because they really did. and it became their cabine and it wasn't, well, givenchy pref- preferred, his whole cabine was of color. mr. saint laurent always liked interesting girls, it didn't

matter if the girl was white or black, he always had an interesting eye. the girls weren't necessarily pretty, they had something that he just connected to. that was what was so great about that, that legend moment, you know. well i wanted to take a digression and talk about yves saint laurent just a little bit because he did work with many models of

color, and not just of african descent. this is kirat, who was an indian model and, um, let's see, i'll show a few. mounia, who was from... the caribbean. the caribbean, that's right. and one more here, of course naomi campbell, much later, and he was instrumental in giving her the first to- her first, well, the first cover for a model of

african descent on french vogue as late as 1988, which is kind of incredible. but, i, but i wanted to talk about that relationship between the designer and the model, building on what you were saying before, because here we see yves saint laurent with kirat and you see what an intimate relationship it is as he's trying the garments on the model

and working with her. he would say that the models were in some ways collaborators with him. he cared what they, how the dress felt on them. he asked their opinion and, you know, he felt that he couldn't do it without them. and this is something that you and i have talked about a little bit, that it was very different from the relationship today,

and can you can you talk about that collaborative role? yeah, you know it's an interesting thing. you know, i think even michael kors been you know, recorded saying that when someone like iman would come in and put on the clothes, and it would just change everything and that was when the model and the designer had this relationship.

and, of course, it is that, what we did. i did that with calvin klein. i mean, i would, calvin - i worked for stephen burrows at the time, but i still would model. i worked in random design studio of stephen burrows, but i modeled as a runway model, and calvin would have me come over and he'd like me to go through the collection with him and talk with

him about what i thought, my opinion. he really valued, he'd see a shirt i had on and he'd say 'oh - i gotta have that shirt. let's- can we, can we copy that?' and he, and the way he would copy it would change the vibe of it, but it inspired him. i mean, we have now a different business, so of course someone, you know when you have a designer that now has a casting

director and a stylist and they're in between. i always say they're in the bed with the designer and the model. they don't allow the model and the designer to have that romance that they used to have because it's now changed. the designer claims he's so busy with the accessories and all that, which is possible. i presume it is that way. but it's changed

for the fashion model and it's no longer what it used to be. surely mr. saint laurent and all of the designers, especially back in those days, their cabine meant everything to them. those girls inspired them. when they sent them out, those girls wore those clothes and it was different. will you explain what the cabine is? the cabine is actually the

actual selection of the models that the designer used over and over again. sometimes it might have been just in-house whether you... if the girls came out to show the clothes to particular buyers, that was the cabine. or it could be the cabine of the, selection of girls, that was what would also show, or be in present to show the clothes on the

runway.and so among american designers, here you are (right?) [laughter] with stephen burrows, who was your good friend and you were a kind of muse to him. and pat cleveland, another famous and wonderful model also working with stephen burrows, and again you see that kind of, this i believe on the left is from the, from the night at versailles, i think. no.

no. good. [laughter] you know what, this was - oh goodness, my brain is so dead but i want to tell you. i'm, first of all i want to commend you for having all these photographs, because it's so nice to see. this was like...it was an event of something in new york. dennis christopher's unders... that's what i thought because of dennis

christopher being there.yes, yes, dennis christopher. he used to be an assistant to holson who now became, he then became an actor. but this is the tommy, that's what it was. the tommy opening, that's where we were then. yeah.and then this image with pat cleveland with stephen burrows, with him pinning the dress and her kind of loosely in chameli, draping her hand on

his shoulder. it seems like you had that kind of relationship with him. yesbut you did not model for yves saint laurent, is that correct? never. no i used to only pray. [laughter] but at the end of the day, prayers were not enough. but i used to, as i was saying earlier, i had the opportunity at least to get my name on the list that i could get

invited to the show, their ready-to-wear shows at that time. and i was always so happy just to get in and to go by, you know, the office and get my ticket. it was like 'ohhhh i got it - i'm gonna go.' you have no idea how wonderful those experiences were. how, to sit there and watch the opening and everybody's just so excited and it's such an easy crowd.

it wasn't stuffy, you know what i mean. no matter who was there, it was never stuffy. and then marian wobble would walk out and this was a male model that always opened the show. because he mixed them in with the women. and he would walk out. he was always, he was a tall, handsome black guy, and he would walk out and you know the show's started. and it was just, it was exciting,

you know? those are times it was just like, man, 'mad cool' as we say. [laughter] mad cool, yeah.well, you then transitioned into becoming an agent for other models and why did you leave modeling? or were you doing these things simultaneously?no it's interesting. good question in that because i didn't, i... i started working at another model agency

to help someone make their agency work and they became very -we became very successful. but at that time people thought i was working so hard and learned i wasn't an owner. why wasn't i...do it for myself? then someone who was very successful in paris started wanting to come into new york and asked me to come in with them. i went

to paris while i was working with other agency in new york, and met with them. and when i start to find an office in new york, which i was encouraged to by people. i'd never want to have a model agency. i want to be really clear because everyone thinks 'oh - you're so ambitious! you wanted to get out there and do it for yourself.'

no. i want to work with the other guy and let them take on the problems. let them, you know, basically let me go on vacation when i wanted to, you know. i mean, i really wanted to. but you know everyone thought i was so good at what i did and you know, what you want to do? you want to leave the business go to la and work in the music business of film? you

should do what you want to. do what we know you're good at. alright, so i listened to other people like steven meisel and lisa robertson who now works at vanity fair. and i basically did what they asked me to do, out of respect to knowing that if you have an opportunity, being where you come from. you're coming from bedford stuyvesant, brooklyn, new

york and you have- [audience member whooped] thank you. [laughter] and, you know, you basically wanted this, you know, represent the community. you're given an opportunity. you are special at what you do. everybody doesn't get a chance to do it. so i went and opened up a model agency with respect to other people. i didn't want to do it, but in the end of

the day i became very successful at it and so i did that and only that. i didn't have a job then: that was the job, because the job i had right before was with the other agency. and i did it and became very successful at it and i'm glad that i did it now, of course. because i really garndered some very good careers, helped other people get up, and i also changed

the industr. and i also educated designers and publications about inclusiveness, and i could do it so easily. you know it's so funny how you, you don't know who you are when you come to this earth, but sometimes there are people who come to this earth to change what we see and i think im just, the revolutionary that i am, i'm just that

person. because i would say to calvin klein and perry ellis and people like that would call me and they'd be so excited that they wanted to use a black girl for their show. and i'd say 'okay, that sounds really great. now how many girls are going to use in the show?' and they say '35' and i'd say 'and you want me to find you one black girl?' 'yeah!' and then when i would say 'yeah, but

...don't you see how...racist that sounds?' [laughter] and they'd be like 'oh no. what-why? why? i thought you'd be happy. what? no. that's- what? i thought you'd, we want to do this.' 'no i do want to do it, but i want you to understand the ratio.' [laughter] this is important, you know. and - oh- brides magazine. i, you see, i had a white

model agency. this was the genius of being a person of color that owns what the competition has in group. so i had... that agency, that really was primarily white with a few kids of color: asian, latin, black. and so it was great. brides magazine, i had a white girl who worked all the time in brides magazine. so one time i said to the editor 'so, you do know that

black people get married too?' [laughter] 'oh bethann, hahaha, you're so funny. why you say that?' because, you know, you're so comfortable, you know. i made it seem so blatant. but they always sort of handle it so well because they didn't have to do with that conversation. like 'ohohoho.' yes, but that was a point to make because they, brides never had anyone of color anywhere. i mean, asian, latin, black:

never. you know they're not the only people getting married. so, that was great. because eventually that changed, it took time, but it changed. now you, i think when we were talking on the phone in preparation to this, for this conversation, you did that from '94 to '96, something like that? and then what happened? did you, did you stop

...working with the modeling agency or?no. i, actually started the agency in 1984. i think '86 is when we saw the coalition. the coalition was just to celebrate black girls. there were so many working editorially that had never existed before because elle magazine came along and just, you know american elle came along, and just changed the game and

changed conde nast and changed hearst. then they had to compete with elle because elle was doing so well. and this guy didn't care about who we put on the cover. he had every girl of any color, any shade in the magazine out. so vogue had to get with it and everybody had to get with it. ...it continued, so i just wanted to celebrate the girls. people thought i did

it to...to address racism. that wasn't it. i was just trying to celebrate the girls and let them see that they could work together as women and also as competitors work together. and also it was a terrible thing of homelessness going on in our city at the time and i wanted to sort of support the homeless organizations. so we did this

thing to raise consciousness to everyone all around about homelessness, about the girls of color being so cool, and everything. that's how it really went on and then that went into- the black girls coalition went on to 1993. and then i went on until 199- well, the girls, those successful girls sort of moved on. but then i wind

up, you know, changing it. 1983 is when we first start address race in advertising. and talking about the advertising agencies weren't reflecting their consumer. now they're perfectly one pitch, but they weren't at that time. and so we pushed that. i...this is one of your most famous models, tyson beckford.what a s- they have come up with some

sweet pictures.aww, well you know i thought that these pictures were really interesting because we think of the fashion world is such a cutthroat industry and kind of a dog-eat-dog and here you are in these really warm and affectionate pictures with two of the top models. and it's obviously a relationship of love and affection that you have, and i'm wondering that, you know,

how these strong and lasting friendships have helped you realize your bigger goals. wow.... that's a deep question. [laughter] okay, um. no, that's interesting. actually, discovering tyson was...was not- you know, people, many people asked me, when tyson became very successful in the second year, say, of his career, you know 'you must

have seen that. you must have really recognized he was gonna be something' you know? i didn't. because i had a lot of good boys at the time. he was just someone that you know, like many of them, i asked a lot of questions. i meet with everyone 3 times no matter how good-looking you are. but he really, he really helped me to...he added to my

legacy, honestly. because of the fact that, you know, we got ralph lauren that really loved and appreciated his heroic look, and that took everything to another level. my relationship with iman was quite different and still is, to this day, a very special relationship because, when she first came to this country, she was

controversial because peter beard had discovered her and claimed that she had discovered this girl in the bush. and sold this, between he and wilhelmina, sold this idea and of course in the black community in america they were very dis- ...really very upset by this because they felt 'why do you have to go all the way to africa to find a girl and bring

her back when there's so many beautiful girls right there?' so she came in into controversy. when she came, there was a big press conference held and they, you know, she was decked out in this way that- first of all, she was a university student. she spoke five languages. no one knew that they just thought she was discovered in the bush like 'bum-bum-bum-bum'

you know. [laughter] no, not so. the fact of it is is that she was somewhat an- when she went around to go on the 'go sees', like to see...halston and then stephen burrows, that's where i met her. and she had, she was trembling like a bird. she was so thin, she was so nervous, she had never worn heels before. people want her to try them on and i was helping

her with the shoe and the...the girls i had as showrooom models basically were like moaning. they were two girls of color and they were saying 'oh why is she-' because i had got down on my knees to help with the shoe and i hear them saying 'what is she getting down on her knees for to help her? she's no princess. who does she-? oh my god!" they were just moaning about it. and you could

see iman was like [trembling] and i just held, and i looked up and i said 'you speak english, don't you? you understand them.' and she said '[nods]' and she then, from that moment connected to me as i helped her anyway as her statue of liberty. she wrote about me in that way and we have been friends for 35 years. i was the mother - what is it? - the matron of honor

at her wedding to david bowie. i have been, you know i just gave her an award from save the children last week tuesday. yeah, this is a great relationship and even tyson. i mean, he's a piece of knucklehead but he's really [laughter] such a good-looking knucklehead. [laughter] and, you know, i am- i am the, i'm the mama, i'm the mama bear to him. and it's been a

wonderful experience too 'cause i've represented him for over 23 years.so did your relationship, i mean, when you were a model, did you have- i mean obviously you know, here you are at a different stage of your life but did you have that same kind of camaraderie with the other girls? or was there a kind of jealous competition...? you know, it's interesting that you say that.

no, i'm glad you question that because everyone does have 'oh - that business has to be so this' but no. we were really good girls together. i did have a, like i said, i wasn't a model on my, you know, just modeling like the other girls were. i didn't ever thought i can afford to do it. but i was a model chosen by very special designers and i was stephen

burrows' model at the time. and when the news, when newsweek wrote...wrote a story on the girls, i was included, the other girls were included. when new york times wrote on those 'black stallions' they named us that and they named us. and we all were so happy we were also, you know, we were just happy to be alive. it was a great time - it was the '70s!

i mean, come on! everyone was coming back to new york - all the europeans, all the artists. everybody rhought new york was so happening, studio 54 opened up. we were so cool, you could- you didn't need to be anybody. if you had style, you were in. personality and style was everything, so we were very cool with each other, happy to be alive. it was a

very good time. i mean you could live in a building for $45. [laughter] a very good time. i know, i know. well, okay, a little higher. maybe $100. but it was still, people lived, and artists lived down in soho, which wasn't even called soho then. it was south of houston. you know, they could- you could...live in a way

that was so different. so of course you had slackers sitting around in cafes talking all day long about the world, never having didn't go to work. i mean the energy at the time was so great. so we didn't have competition in that way. people were coming out; different designers, halston came along, giorgio sant' angelo. there were black

designers that were working. there was such greatness in that sense. and nobody had this kind of feeling of 'you're not accepted, you can't come.' it's more now because it's become "fashion." a difference of mentality, of many things, because there have become these bars where people have to jump over. and then it became the luxury business - it's

changed. so no competition with us. and still, we still all have to do things because of the versailles situation too. well, and i want to move now to one of your most powerful organizing efforts: he diversity coalition. and here you are with iman and naomi campbell and a letter that you sent in september 2013. and here, so here you are as the

spokesperson for this coalition and you are, in a very confrontational way, laying it out there and i'd love you to elaborate on this and tell us how that came about.this was something, after 2007 when i first started the - what do you call it? - the town hall meetings about diversity, trying to help change it because,

after i left the industry of a model agency i had from 2000- um, 1984 to 200-? no, 1984 to 1996. when i left, i went down to mexico and i started spending time there. and, you know, the new york times had written up the fact that there was going to be a- really a drought with me gone because of the fact that i had helped change and support and champion so much. which, of

course i felt was a little bit more- too much pressure on me, because i thought 'nah, it's not possible. everything's going to be fine. they don't, i mean, what-what big of voice was i? how big was i that i affect the things?' but, truth be told, things start to change. and naomi's kept calling me every so often and say, 'ma you gotta come back

because, you know, there's so many people not using girls of color anymore.' and, you know, it took a while. but by 2004, i think, you know andre talley as well as naomi was going to the collections and seeing, and seeing what's happening in new york. and it was just different. when things have- when you achieve something and then all of a sudden it falls back, it becomes

a real serious situation. and it took me a few years to get it together to find a way to do what i had to do. but i then held, in 2007, the...town hall meeting where i talked about the industry in such a way which really gave us a great thing because women's wear daily supported it on a cover story, new york times, the guardian, and the independent

in england. and it went around rampantly saying 'is there a problem that there's racism in fashion?' that was 2007, and then we try to keep, i tried, and with, the black issue came out with italian vogue. that was great because that was, i think the fact that...i think franca sozzani seeing that really helped to change things too. but not enough. and then by

2010 it was still sort of like wavering. i had different- but girls were coming up, the designers were seeing them. model agencies were doing better at taking them on because it had been being said for some time that, you know - no blacks, no ethnics. they were just casting directors. which, we never had casting

directors before. so casting directors now were determining who the designer would see. and then eastern europe had opened up and all the wall had come down so there was more girls coming in from eastern europe. so things had changed rapidly. by 2012, everybody was talking to me that things had, from 2010, had begin to look a little bleak again. and then

one day, in my home in mexico, i set up and decided to write a letter. i called two of the people who are part of the coalition. the coalition is like a, like the mafia, i call it. [laughter] you know, you never know who's in the mafia? but the coalition is like that. it's like a speakeasy. i'm the only person everyone knows because i'm the front the band. but

these are people who feed me information, but they're important in the industry. so they're models, they're editors, they're casting directors as well. they are people who- stylist, model agency reps, but they all - white, black, latin, asian - they're all the people who do not like the way the industry is going. they want it diverse. because they also represent, but

they also believe. so, with that, i had this crew and we would do international phone calls. and the international phone calls would be getting on for them to tell me who, what, how, how they felt about things, what they were seeing. so i did, with a little small staff i have, a count of every designer who used one or none models of color for two or three

season consistently, and i wrote a letter to the fashion councils in london, milan, paris, and also new york naming them (which is really hardcore). but at the time it just seemed like that's the only thing we could do. because before, you talk nicely and talk to everyone, like in a room like this. didn't you send it to the press?and i sent

it to each one of them by email and, and then, and said that if they, if they did this, then, whether it was their intention or not, it was...it was racist, right. so of course i had to call women's wear daily because i had to get the press involved. so they had to see it, and so women's wear daily said 'well who

is the-' you know i try to be gangster and i said, they said 'who- who is-? [laughter] who wrote this letter?' i said 'i don't know. i- i don't' [laughter] [laughter continues]it's so silly. it's silly, right? she said 'bethann, you gotta tell us who wrote the letter otherwise i can't do anything about-' well of course, i wrote the letter. and i can't- so i said,

'okay, i wrote the letter.' so she said 'alright.' so they went to each of those councils and called- contacted them. and they all had to give, you know, an explanation. the councils are not responsible for the designers, but that was the only way i could think of to get their attention. it was brilliant, honestly. i mean, you know at the time you think it's just, you know,

you're just doing something. but the kids behind me... the two that i said 'look at this letter and tell me what you think.' and it was just short. and they said 'it's definitely hardcore, but you're hitting the point.' i said 'so i- so this should be the letter?' they said 'this should be the letter.' and that was a lot. so there were people who

said, and at press, 'do you think you might get sued?' [laughs] the joke. i said, first of all, if i was like dealing with the klu klux klan or homeland security, maybe i'd think about getting sued. this is fashion- hahaha. [laughter] i mean, i'm not doing anything wrong. i'm just looking at it like the little kid who said 'the emperor's new clothes - they

don't have any clothes on!' i mean, i'm only reporting what they're doing. so i mean, how could i get sued? she said, 'okay, i'm just asking.' i never had any fear of that because, as people said 'do you think you can make a difference?' but i've been down this road before. i have sort of rang the bell, you know. and i've seen the results. and i

also think that they're never doing anything out of being- i don't say that i, actually, was very careful with my words. i never said they were racist. i was saying the action, the results of it, is racism. the first thing i knew about my industry: no matter who they are, they're the last one who wants to think that they're racist.

and i knew that if i put that out there, it would change things. that was september 8, 2013. that was the first day of fashion week in new york city. i didn't expect to change anything in new york city, but i knew it would start something. so when you see this photograph there with naomi and iman, that was on good morning america, but that was just the

beginning of the press. it was international: cnn international, cnn new york. it was just boom-boom-boom-boom-boom. and i'ma tell you something: i give those two girls a lot of credit. what? it's not easy for them because they've been on the road with me before and different things, but they- i mean, iman said 'i don't care what's on my schedule,

whenever we need to be someplace, i'm with you.' and they were so, you know, quote-unquote like i am gangster, they were gangster with me. they really basically stood strong on it. and it wasn't anything to affect or to shame and industry, or to shame anyone. it was to educate. the whole point is to educate them, make people realize that what you

think you're doing is cool, but it's not cool- it's not good for, for the entirety. and what happened is that by- i sent that letter in september 8th. by paris, milan - things change. and celine was- so, to say, the new york times had written a cover story two months before that on the same same issue, backing what i had been doing all along. and the

end of the day celine, who we really love as a design company, but never used any one of color - any color. that season, right behind that letter, in october she used five girls. immediately. because no one wants to think of themselves that way. it's based more out of habit and ignorance. and so with that was great because she right away put somebody of color in her

advertising. things just changed some- uh....mr. armani closed the show with a black girl, opened... i mean they just- they started shifting. and that supported all the agencies because now people feel much more comfortable that have a market. that's what's great. i'm very impressed by your style of activism. that is, i mean, this is a

very direct letter, but then your follow-through was very positive and, as you said, 'educational' rather than scolding or putting them on the defensive and it seems like that's a model that could apply in so many different ways.in so many ways. because it has to be organic. number one, you have to feel like it's the

truth of something. and, like i said, when i was getting my reward for the cfda which, really, believe me - you know, i'm revolutionary. i think i'm the granddaughter of fidel castro and sh- you know. i almost cursed just then, you see. i caught myself. but the end of the day i really believe that, you know, you have to

educate. and that's what i was saying in- when i was getting that award, that i wasn't really trying to put anyone down. that i'm not here to raise another race up. i'm just trying to educate those who are in charge, those who do take that opportunity. it's to educate whites more so than the intended to help blacks or latins on you know or asians. it's

more to get clear because young kids don't see it the way we see it once we're grown-up. young kids- i have, my son even. he, you know, he's far grown now but back in the day if i asked him who was the kid that was with him, he couldn't describe, my son. well just tell me something - was he white or black? he said 'i don't know.' now that was back then.

kids today really don't get that, they don't get the color thing, and so it's so important to me. it's more for what we're bringing up, more so than who we are right now. that's what our responsibility is.i was interested, when we were walking through the galleries today, and we were talking about this issue and you told me about a

conversation you had with zac posen.yeah. and could you talk about that? because that's - yeah. - because he wanted to use an entirely...-his thing is very- zac posen's thing is very much like mr. saint laurent. mr. saint laurent used to feel like he just loved the way his clothes looked on girls of color. he just- they make, they did something to him that made him see

it differently. zac feels the same way and zac's thing was always with me. he wanted me to help him, he wanted me- my blessing also, on doing an all black cabine or an all-black model show and i just - it just doesn't play well with me, with that. you know i'm still about diversity. you can't be about diversity and say 'yeah, let's get all

the black kids in there.' i mean, you have to- you have to really look at it for what it really says. and so i would say to him 'no, don't do all black show, don't do an all back show.' and he said 'but why?' and everybody thinks because of what you fight for, that's what you would like to see. that's not what i want to see. if i

say diversity, i mean diversity. i don't need to be 50-50. you could be 70-30, meaning less than. but let's do that, because if you do that then you'll see the beauty of each one. if you make it all one thing people pass it off, especially in this new thing called 'fashion.' [laughter] you know, they'll sit there like this- you know they're so cold anyway. you do a fashion show, i mean.

these people have- you know, back in the day, you talk about the '70s. we used to yell and you- first of all, you invited all the students. and people outside of our industry never were allowed into a fashion show. so you invite maybe students of fashion, and these kids would cheer and make noise and a girl would walk down and she'd

sashay and everyone went 'ahhoh!' you know. not anymore. now everybody sitting there like this. and these are people who are to buy and to sell and to report your clothes. so of course, you know, you be-hahaha you can't get any rise out of them, that's the whole thing. [laughter]it's not as fun. no, it's not fun. so, with, you know, the great thing about talking to zac about, you

know, changing it and making it diverse - he didn't go down that road. but the time he decided to do what he wanted to do more. he and his mate called me up and asked me to come up, they had something to show me. it was right before the shows, about 3 or 4 days. and i went up and what he did was just- what was very smart. he had a cabine of mostly girls of color, of every

shade. with asian girls, latin girls, dark girls of every shade. but he reversed it where he made maybe- he had like six or seven blonde and... brown hair and red haired girls. so it became the reverse, but it did something so brilliant because, for me, he showed, with so much strength, the beauty of the girls of color. and, at the same time, the

girls that were caucasian were so happy to be there. ii was so funny to see. it was like they felt like they were special. [laughter] and they were! because everyone was beautiful. but it- when he showed that collection, it was the first collection i've ever seen zac had where the audience was so quiet and at the end they roared.

because he sold the collection on a beauty that they had seen in such a way that it was more organic than forced. and that was what was very proud for me.and so he was- he got your point obviously. he got the point. well here you are getting your award. and that looks like a beautiful evening - it was nice. - so you might think 'well it's all done. [laughter] you know,

we succeeded!' but i'd love to know your assessment of the issue of diversity in the fashion business today, and are you feeling optimistic? yeah, it's interesting. you know, it's interesting to think, you know, when people say 'who's going to be there?' you know, prabal gurung always says that. who is the- he's a young designer. well, he's not

young, but he's, to us, young in the sense that his business is young. and he wonders, who is going to be that person who actually ends or comes after i go? i don't think it's that situation because there are people who come along, along the way, and no one replaces them. you know, we could only hope that things change. i feel confident because

you know there are a lot of girls now. and model agencies are having a good time with the asian girls, latino girls, girls of color, black girls.they're feeling confident with the market. how much of a career they can have, because so many models in the world right now, i don't know, you know. but you can at least see them in catalogs, you can see them in

advertising. so i feel very, much more confident. but i never think i can take my foot off the clutch, like i always think they have to stay right there, you know, watching. because, you know, at one point i got confidence and i laid back for a few years and it'd start to go down. i don't think it's gonna happen this time. this time, i think the

conversation has been had so much and now also, you know, you can't- you couldn't talk about race before. people don't like talk about it. they want to just all be all good. why do we got to talk about it? [laughter] well, [scoffs] because there's a problem. [laughter] and so, you know, i might- my point to be to that is that, you know - now it's good because now they're talking about it in

politics, now they talking, you know, black lives matter, police hitting people, shooting people. i mean, the end of the day, my little subject in my conversation which was in this little island that's growing a little bit more pop culture called 'fashion' - it was a big conversation to be having. but now i'm getting a lot more support in a sense. you know, i don't

need that kind of support. but in a sense, it's a better conversation for everyone that is not an uncomfortable conversation. it's not uncomfortable in my, in my world so much because it's a fashion business. it's people who really are liberals. which i always said liberals are like borderline - you never know. [laughter] yeah, but in the end of the day it's

always better to have the conversation and i feel more confident now then i, then i have in a lot of years, because now so many girls- i'm discovering girls i don't even know where they're coming from. you're like 'wow - look at this one, look at that one.' and i'm having a dinner, we're saying, with [name] from w with 12 girls because, you know, restaurants

can't have...so much of a big table, but we're doing it in a restaurant. and it's just to keep celebrating everyone. you keep changing around because there's so many beautiful girls out there right now, and they need support because it's not an easy game to be a model no matter what color you are. and then to be a girl of color or a boy of color, it's not an

easy game. i mean, i don't encourage anyone to be a model. i want you to go into technology. [laughter] keep it real, you know. do something where you know you can win, you know. become a coder. but girls want to model because it's like when i was a kid. i want, you know, people wanted to be a ballerina. so in the end of the day, you know, i

don't encourage it. i discourage as much as i can, but those who are beautiful can get through. c'est la vie.well, one last question for you. we walked through the exhibition today and we talked about how yves saint laurent was so aware of his legacy, even as a very young man and we talked about legacy. and i just wonder if you know- what you think, if

you had to kind of boil it down to a sentence, what- how would you define your legacy? wow. [laughter] alright. want to help me? [laughter] alright, so i mean, you know, there's a lot of things i say like - you know, i have slogans - that keeps me going. i don't know about this, you know. i know

that when you leave this earth, each and every one of us - and that's not anyone who's done anything special - but just living. we, each one of us, should walk away knowing that we did alright, alright? so you do your very best. everyone's not meant to be a trojan horse. there are a lot of people who are meant to just pull the trojan horse.

so you know, you have those who are not going to be necessarily successful at things but doesn't matter. it's a personal success. i don't think of, you know, i know one thing - i got more responsible about leaving a legacy because people kept asking me 'please write a book, please write a book, please write a book.' and

then i know i started a documentary to talk about this industry. and then, the documentary, i was always trying to make it about joan smalls and jeneil williams and...[name], and i was trying to talk about the industry and how it was stuck, giving me such a hard time. i was trying to talk- and then eventually you, you know, you just know:

make the documentary about you. because how long- much longer do i have to live? you know, you live, everyone's- so many people are passing away. i keep thinking 'i gotta do that.' so, yes, i started being responsible about a legacy. so, yes, i would do...you know, the book. yes, i would do the the film so i can leave something behind. now people start saying

'where are you putting your papers?' i never heard of papers before. 'you know, you have to put it somewhere.' put what-? i threw most of them away. i mean, okay. [laughter] now i know you have to do that, so now i'm trying to be conscious. because it's not so much about what i leave about me. it's what other people should have the right to see and know. so, yes, i do think that i

have things, like i say, running- i have mantras like, you know, 'learn to run your own race.' you know...don't always look around and see. stay in your lane, you know. 'the lighter the load, the freer the journey.' these are things that get me through. so if i have to say that i have things that i say to get me through, i

don't know what my legacy would be other than: she was cool, she was funny, and she sure loved the dance. [laughter] [applause] thank you all, really. wow. okay, i stand too. i want to tell you thank you. wow. well done, huh? i want to say one thing too, real quick, 'cause i know we're gonna do a little q&a, maybe? - yeah.- okay, i just want to say

one thing. thank you very much, the museums. i'm really very proud of the exhibit, number one, that you were able to achieve this and very proud of what the- mr. berge, i have to give him credit for everything - to bring this, and to help you to have this here. but mostly importantly what you did here, what you've done, what david and philip has

done, but you all. thank you for coming out and making me feel so cool. thank you.i think we're all inspired to hear you and i know that there will be some questions, so we have a few minutes. philip has a microphone for anybody who has a question. saw this hand first so i'll go over there: good evening, miss hardison.

so, bed-stuy, fort greene. brooklyn love, right? a funny question: she asked a question that i was going to ask, like what do you want your legacy to be? but, on a lighter note, did kadeem have his selection in your agency at all? you mean what- you mean, when you say that- kadee- you know kadeem was my messenger. he started when- yeah, he helped me a bit, you know, my

company. what do you mean his selection? do you mean of girls? [laughs] kadeem would be- no matter who he liked, he became everyone's brother. he took it- boy, and i had- he was great for me because he really helped take care of the girls and so he liked people, but they just kept looking at him like, as brother.

yeah, so he didn't get much of a selection. that was a good question. again, good evening and thank you so much for coming to seattle. my question is: in terms of beauty, i learned what is beauty from my mother right here, and it was to appreciate women from all races and colors. but when i look at our first lady, to me, you can't be more beautiful than

she is, and designers- [applause] designers, you know, would give their life. and here's this woman. so why isn't the woman of color more acceptable to designers and just everywhere in the world? because, again, i mean the grace, the beauty that is in women of color is just so apparent to me. again, because of my mother. - yeah, you're right. - so, your thoughts on

that? but again- well you know that's interesting you say that. now it was- it's very interesting: what i started doing, if i sit at a fashion show and sit next to someone, i will show them the difference, especially when zac did what he did. i would say 'look at the girl of-' 'cause a girl of color, when she wears the

clothes, it seems like she's wearing her own clothes. when you see the girl who's non- the...non colored girl. [laughter] it's hard to get that out. she seems like she's a model. and i promise you, i would sit at show with, you know j- j alexander, the queen. i sat next to him at zac's show and i said 'i want to show you something:

look at each girl that works out and you'll see the difference of how the girl with color she wears a-' and this is true, and we had this little joke that we would say 'wearing it. not wearing it. wearing it.' and it's true. it's...it's just a quality. and some girls, i like, david and i both spoke about karlie kloss. yeah, no - karlie kloss wears a dress. i

mean, she's a white girl, tall like a, you know, like a building. but she has a sashay about her because she's like an entertainer. so it's not everyone but in most cases it's true, it's the beauty of them all. hi. so i am a board member on- with barbie and i collect african american barbies. i

have one of the largest collections in the world. and, i would say, that i don't know if you realize how you've actually impacted girls from a long time ago because i have my legacy here. and barbie has now stephen burrows and byron lars and we have zac posen and certain- and the collectible dolls. so i want you to know that it is,

your activism is actually going down into areas that you don't necessarily know directly. yes, thank you very much for that. thank you. [applause] hi. thank you so much for all the work that you've done. - thank you. - and thanks for being here today. my question was how much, with

fashion, and we're talking about women of color modeling, and their presentation to the world and making that more 'acceptable' or whatever, mainstream. what about behind the scenes in fashion? like, how do we get- i'm a photographer, so like how does-? how do you get- work on that?you could get- you know, okay i'm gonna cut you real fast and tell you:

you could do very well in new york 'cause you're good-looking. now let me tell you what happens. this is- [laughter]thank you. it's a shame to say, but as we say growing up as kids and mothers and parents and all, you know, your looks can take you a long way. it's an amazing thing. what you just asked, because that's

something that's going on right now, talking about behind-the-scenes. there are so few behind the scenes, it's always been. there are not a lot of people who basically can be behind-the-scenes, i mean, have that- whatever that take- that true grit. and if they do have it, they don't know how to become an apprentice. they don't know how to work with someone else to help

them get up. that's what everyone does. most people of color think that i can do this on my own. it's not true. what you need to do is get inj- you have to play the guerrilla warfare. you have to get in with the other guy, work with him, let someone who like him begin to recommend you. or let the others see you with them. but i

promise you, i have to say to you, it is true - if you're like a, you know, like a full-size person or not particularly attractive "fashion" person, you won't get anywhere. it's amazing. it's amazing. it's...it's almost like the eye needs to travel and find good-looking, and then they sort of find all the sudden that you're kind of

interesting or sexy or something. i don't know. especially with the males. but with a female, yeah, you could easily go to new york and start working with some designer as an assistant and i bet you ten to one you'll shoot up and you'd sink it. but also the stylist and hair and makeup - they're people who really basically are brilliant at that. but, as i say to them,

they don't need to be in the quote-unquote fashion anymore because they mostly do celebrities and they're making good buck and they're doing very well. but everybody has their personal best. people want to be accepted in the other world and they should be. that's a good thing. i mean, you know, i

don't know what to say about that other than the fact that there is a problem. time for one more question.[laughter] i made it! okay, hello, my name is jodyann, so i identify with the bethann thing, so...[scattered laughter] and i'm also from new york - yay. my question is...i feel like every time we talk about blackness or people of

color, women of color, it's always in relation to whiteness. i just want to step away from that for a second and just talk about like women of color, models of color, because even in this image- like, i understand that in relation to the fantasy- like what we know about the fashion, like this is adding diversity. but when i look at this image in itself

it's very homogeneous in terms of its representation of beauty, just like - there's just a lot of homogeneity. so i just want you to speak a little bit about, you know, women of color, models of color across races and like, what the diversity- what you think the next steps are where the industry is right now in terms of giving a little bit more

diversity within the representation of blackness or woman of color, or stuff like that. well, where we are we're moving nicely along you. could it be where we want it to be, if people wanted to be 50/50? no, we're not going to be there. because there are so many girls from all over the world that are caucasian that come to

america, to new york to work. all around the world. there's so many. before, eastern europe wasn't open like it is now, it's such a change. so will we be able to have a lot of girls of color working in the industry? we are doing much better than we were a few years ago. would i like those girls of color to not work in the industry?

yes, i would. [laughs] because i don't love the industry like everybody else does. i appreciate it because i'm from it. but at the end of the day, i wish they would, like i said, go work in technology. [laughter] but in the end, yay team. they are doing much better and there's a lot of beautiful kids coming along and i'm really very proud of that. i wish the boys could work

better, actually, because that's my real nut is the male model. but they do okay, but not as good as the girls are doing. so there is a lot of, you know, you may not see it because you don't go to shows, you can't see all of it, you don't see enough in your magazines or advertising. but it has been a great improvement. i really wouldn't say it if,

you know, if it wasn't. i don't think that, you know, we're 'free, free at last' and all that. but [laughs] but i'm very proud of what we've achieved and i'm...i'm hoping it'll continue and it's good. it's better. yeah, i want to say that- one thing, this is something that's very important. i'm glad you threw that out. i- age in, and also plus size and all those things. when

they say 'diversity - do you- you must really care about that.' truth of it is, that's not my fight. i stay within the lane of fashion model and that's what i know i can work and really achieve. the other thing is happening on its own. the plus size girl - they think that's a new hip, cool thing and so model

agencies are adding that. that's fine. when it comes down to age, yes, if you were a model before, you can continue to work in the industry all the way to the very end. will you be working like you were when you were 22? not necessarily. you can work with a lot of different companies. will you start out as a model at at 42 or 38?

no. but, unusually so, you can find that in the commercial world. and the 'commercial' is television, you know, those kind of- where you can actually, someone can dicover, say 'oh your aunt is so beautiful she should go up and see-' and, yes, you can maybe get a commercial. but in general, as a career, who wants the model when you're at good age

and you're-? i mean, [laughter] what are you, lonely? you're not lonely. so, i mean- i mean, you know, but you know, don't go by me because i'm not, i'm not- i'm more of a hater than a lover when it- [laughter] no you're not. [continued laughter] well, i want to thank you all for coming tonight and thanks again to bethann hardison. [laughter, applause] you're not a hater.i'm just kidding.

[continued laughter, applause]